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Hello, everybody.

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It's Nancy May and Doing it Best With Eldercare Success.

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And today's episode is one that actually started with a question I had myself.

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And it's all related around what happens to those of us that are not just

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caring for one parent or two parents, but three or four, or maybe even five

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family members over the course of time.

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And What happens with our own sense of identity and wellbeing?

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Do we forget who we are?

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Are we tied to that or not?

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So on that front, I have a guest here today, Dr.

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Evan Plyes, who's a PhD and licensed clinical psychologist,

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board certified gerontologist.

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Psychologist at the Center for Health Outcomes and Internal Disciplinary

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Research at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, Massachusetts.

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He's also a faculty member at the Harvard Medical School and provides psychotherapy

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services to caregivers to improve their emotional health and wellbeing and does

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research on adults and caregivers as well.

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So this is just such an important subject, Evan, that.

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Let's just dive in and get dirty in a good kind of way.

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Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, well, thanks so much for having me.

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and, uh, yeah, so I, I do a lot of, work clinically with, caregivers.

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So, I'm coming at it from kind of like the therapist, doing psychotherapy angle.

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And, the issue you're discussing.

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If we think about caregiving as a role that we inhabit, just like many other

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roles in our life, it can be, you know, employee, uh, parent, child, uh, et

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cetera, caregiver is another role that we add, over the, the course of our life.

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At different phases of life and at different circumstances, roles

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become bigger and, some roles emerge as, taking up more time.

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some roles also give more meaning and purpose.

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and so I think when we, when we think about that, like, feeling,

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very connected to being a caregiver.

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it, it's really being connected to that role, that you're inhabiting and how that

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has surfaced as something very important, and often time consuming for you.

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One thing I feel is very interesting for us to even talk about is

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how many people, although we are caring for somebody that we love, especially

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we're talking about elder care right now, really elderly parents, it could

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be a spouse, it could be another family member, older people, that the term

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caregiver is one that so many of us shun.

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I would even say I did that myself, even though I was not technically

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a physical hands on caregiver all the time with my folks, because

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I did this from 1200 miles away.

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I had a team of people that were working with me or aides to manage that.

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Daily getting out of bed, making sure they're physically clean and

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safe and mentally safe as well.

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But that term caregiver is one that I personally shunned for a long time, and

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it wasn't until later on that I realized, you know what, taking care of everything

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else is what it is, and it's almost like, I hear people say, oh, that's

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almost beneath me, I'm not a caregiver.

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Do you find people are saying that or doing that or just quietly

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admitting or afraid to admit that caregiver can actually be a good thing?

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Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, sometimes there's people who don't identify

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with, uh, the role of caregiver and, also there are language preferences.

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Some people prefer care partner, carer, or, defining it in some different way.

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I think that, in my experience, most people are okay with the term caregiver.

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I think.

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I think where it become where it can become problematic is, it is kind

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of negating all those other roles.

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so when people identify, like, as I am a caregiver, then, you know,

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people are multi dimensional.

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It's like you lose your identity.

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I'm no longer a leader, an executive, I'm a caregiver, but we can be both.

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Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, absolutely.

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And, where that gets people in trouble that I often see is when we actually

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think about a caregiver, like, that term is also used professionally, so it's a,

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it's a term that's coming from the field of medicine, and I think, inherently,

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I think sometimes we actually, when we name ourselves as caregivers, um, what

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are we comparing ourselves to, like, I think sometimes we're comparing ourselves

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to, what a professional nurse would do, what, people in the field of healthcare

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would do, and we're simply not doing it.

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In that type of role,

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And maybe I don't want to be a nurse and maybe I don't want to be a

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doctor or maybe I don't want to be an aide, but I'm, I don't want to use the

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word stuck, but it's the only word I can think of, like stuck in this role.

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It's my responsibility to do, well for somebody that I

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loved and who cared for me.

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But it's, it's almost hard to, adopt that the term, but it's really, I think

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the role in making that merge into now being the one that they are dependent on.

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Evan Plys PhD: yeah, and it's, I mean, it's like, it's kind of like,

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It's scary.

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Evan Plys PhD: yeah, and setting yourself up for a job with, you

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know, hopefully do get training,

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was about to say, John, with no training, you just, sometimes

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you're just like, Oh my God, like this, you know, it's hit the fan.

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I gotta jump in and fly down or fly out to somewhere to,

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to pick mom up off the floor.

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Evan Plys PhD: and again, from the mental health, kind of

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emotional health side of things.

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It's more of that comparison.

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So I'm making comparisons of myself and my performance to that of a professional.

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And what if I fail?

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Evan Plys PhD: What if you fail?

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Then I feel like the stakes are a little bit higher, but also it's not really

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a fair comparison, not just because of the training, but people who are

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professional caregivers have shifts.

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And so that's a huge difference.

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Family members don't.

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We're always on.

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Whether it's physically there or emotionally there, right?

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Evan Plys PhD: exactly.

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And, and one of the things that I mentioned people as well, if you are a

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nurse in a hospital and your spouse comes into that hospital, likelihood is they're

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not going to give you that assignment because that's a conflict of interest.

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Mm hmm.

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Evan Plys PhD: So, you're really not a truly professional caregiver, the

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field of medicine and healthcare has identified that, you being in this dual

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role is not the best way to provide care.

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and yet people find themselves in that dual role.

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That's not to say that caregiving is bad.

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like a bad thing by any means, or that people don't care.

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I think it's the, the way that you set your expectations up of that role.

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So I'm holding myself to a standard that really, I

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shouldn't have to hold myself to.

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So one of the things that I like to do with some folks

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is rename what caregiver is.

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So,

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That is.

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Evan Plys PhD: about, well, it really depends on the individual,

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like, what is that role?

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because caregiver, again, that is a healthcare professional,

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But what does caregiver look like to them?

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Is that cleaning up and helping mom and dad cook meals or driving them to the

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doctors or helping them stay physically safe and well, or is it from 1200 miles

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away, paying bills and making sure that they do get to the points that they have

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the right care, that, that the people who shouldn't be there are not there.

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And the people who should be there are there kind of thing.

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Evan Plys PhD: yeah, is it the, the present son?

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Is it the, loyal spouse?

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whatever, whatever.

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Make sense for you and in that role in that relationship, but I do think

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redefining it, can be powerful for people because again, when we were adopting these

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names and these roles that are preset.

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It also kind of comes with this preset, expectations for how we're supposed to do

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our

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own baggage.

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Yeah,

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so, there are a couple of different things I want to discuss,

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just quickly, starting out in the role as a quote unquote caregiver, whatever

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that might look to the outside world.

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One of the things that you're suggesting is that you sit down with yourself and

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maybe a parent or siblings or a spouse and say, this is my definition of caregiving.

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Is that true to you?

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Or just do you do it for yourself to say, this is what my expectations are.

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This is where I'm going to be And this is how the role is going to evolve over time

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Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, having that conversation with yourself,

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is the thing to do.

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Yeah.

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So you don't just get into, I call it the head trash, a non professional term,

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but another term I, to it as like the itty bitty, you know, shitty committee.

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I'll, I'll bleep that one out.

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Evan Plys PhD: I guess then, I would become the, uh, like

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a professional head trash man.

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Oh, so yeah, you, that turns you into human sanitation collector.

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Evan Plys PhD: yeah, and see what I did.

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I renamed it and now I have a different set of expectations

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myself as a, as a mental trash

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As a mental trash collector versus a geropsychologist.

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So one of the reasons why I wanted to have this discussion to begin with, and

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we had talked about the other week was.

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Really looking at people that I have gotten to know over the years

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who have been in this role of, we'll use the term caregiver here,

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for multiple people over time.

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they start with a mom, then it goes to mom passes, then it's the dad, then

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it's the spouse, then it's, an in law or some, so now they're in this role

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for such an extended period of time.

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And.

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I'm not a psychologist, but there are certainly those, those highs

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and lows that we get addicted to.

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Right?

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it's the endorphins that come into play, the highs of the great joys and

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the success and even the emergencies, that adrenaline that, goes through you.

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And then the lows of when things don't necessarily go the

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way you had hoped they would.

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and then when those, that, that role as quote unquote caregiver ends

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because there is nobody else that needs your help and your family.

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There are two things that I've seen.

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It's a sense of extreme grief because now the identity of who that person

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is has been, and this is the exact term that I had originally heard,

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and which is why I reached out to you, was -codependent on that role

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and responsibility that you have.

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Not as the role and responsibility of being a leader in a corporate world

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or as an employee someplace else or even a cashier at Walmart, but you

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have become so attached to that role as the caregiver where somebody else

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is dependent upon you all the time.

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And now, poof, they're gone.

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And the change in personality, the grief, the wondering of who am I anymore and

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how to build relationships again in a way like you might have done before.

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Which may not be possible.

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I mean, how often does that happen?

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And, beyond the people that I've seen, is that something that's more prevalent

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than we realize, even as, as individuals, because we're the ones going through it.

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Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, it's very common.

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I would say in my experience that folks do grieve losing

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the, you know, the caregiving activities and and caregiving role.

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Not just the loss of the person, but the loss of the

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role, uh, the need to, the, the desire to, to help somebody or

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the need to be there for someone.

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Evan Plys PhD: Exactly.

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And, you, you hit on it early on of, you know, we know that caregiving is

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met with stressors and challenges and.

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Exactly.

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Profound insights, it, it is not all negative.

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There's a lot of positive that comes from caring for somebody,

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there's, individual growth.

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There's, uh, being able to restructure a relationship in a meaningful way.

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And, and there's also kind of this, like, Transhuman kind of meaning that

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can be, taken from the act of caregiving.

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It's, it's very powerful and it gives you meaning and purpose because it's a

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very powerful thing, rooted in love.

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And, it was a very strong emotion.

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So it makes sense that, we get a lot there's these really positive

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things that we're getting.

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and so it is difficult to, change that role.

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I, I would say, I'm hesitant to to say, kind of losing that

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role or abandoning that role.

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Because I, I think that the things that, the love, the, helping others

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that, generativity or family, whatever the kind of source of meaning and

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purpose that you're taking from the caregiving role, that persists.

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if, somebody in your family passes away, you, it's not that

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you no longer value family.

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it's just the particular behavior.

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That was scratching that itch for you.

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The day to day activities have changed, but the experience has

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ideally made you a, a more rich human being or person, not just to yourself

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and your family, but maybe to, to others in society that just cause how

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you react to them differently now.

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Evan Plys PhD: Exactly.

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And, again, the thing about you, I would call it like a

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value about your value system.

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Do they change, you think?

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Evan Plys PhD: I don't think the values change.

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I think the behaviors that scratch the itch of those values change.

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So, I may still value helping others, or I may still value, respecting my

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elders, even after the, caregiving role for an aging parent ends.

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I just need to now find another way.

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Another behavior to enact that's what happens in the grieving process

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of you're having to adapt, you're having to find new behaviors to

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maintain that sense of identity.

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Yeah.

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So

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Okay.

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So I'm, I, I'm going to need a little forgiveness here because that almost

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sounds like an addictive personality.

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It's like you go from, from one habit to another, to another, you know,

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not that I'm a drinker, although I do enjoy a glass of wine on a Friday

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night every day, most Friday nights.

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But

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How do you replace that?

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That one desire, that driving desire that you're so ingrained in

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now that has become a day in and day out habit with something else.

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Is that a fair assessment or not?

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Yea, so it's

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a little extreme in saying that's an addictive personality.

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Evan Plys PhD: You know, why, why do I, why do I smoke?

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I'm not a smoker.

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I've never had a cigarette.

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So, but I know other people who do, and it's everything

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I've heard is it feels good.

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You know, it makes me feel good.

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It's that sense of whatever it is.

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It's, it's a euphoria that makes me feel happy.

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my mom who is a smoker for many years, when she quit, even after she quit, she

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says, Oh, I could light up tomorrow,

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Evan Plys PhD: So, so maybe it's,

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self soothing with

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Evan Plys PhD: you know, it, it could be relaxing, could be activating,

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could be, so there's something you're getting something from that behavior.

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So, if I choose then to quit smoking, I would presumably have to replace, you

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know, whatever I was getting with a new

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something else, right,

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Evan Plys PhD: Or, or it becomes very challenging and, I'm not setting

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myself up to be, you know, for sustainability of, of quitting smoking.

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Um, so you can think of life changes that way.

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if I'm dropping the identity of being a smoker, there is a behavior that I was

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previously doing to get a benefit and that's why I kept doing that behavior.

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Now, I'm changing the behavior.

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And I need to do something new, replace that with a new behavior

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that's doing the same thing.

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So I might go for a walk.

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Um, I might stretch.

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I might, do something that makes me really happy.

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a jolt of, serotonin.

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so, but I'm, I'm continuing to do something in my life that

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is for the express purposes of.

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self soothing.

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right,

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Evan Plys PhD: Behavior changes, and so it's similar in thinking about if one

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of the things that really has connected me to that caregiving role is being able

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to meet, being able to meet myself with somebody who's, at a vulnerable time.

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So now what that looks like might change.

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Yeah, I might, uh, volunteer.

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I might, find other ways in my life to, enact that need that I have.

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And I would say that's probably a little bit more specific.

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I would, it's probably a little bit broader of like being

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caring family or whatever, but you're changing the, behavior.

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and that happens throughout life.

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You know, I, if I value my health, the way that I enact that.

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Behaviorally is going to look different from my 20s to my 40s to my 60s to my 80s.

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So.

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In the caregiver role, because now we're going to, we're, we're no

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longer a caregiver, our role and responsibilities to somebody else in that.

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That might have been frail or need us for to survive, really,

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is what that is, is changed.

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And so we have to go back to what is a new norm and whatever that might be.

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You say, going back to habits that made us feel good, What if we forgot

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what those, because it was so long, we forgot what made us feel good.

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Because we do, we just don't know anymore.

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It's been 20 years and the friends that we had have disappeared because we don't

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have the chance to go out with them.

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And it's a job to keep relationships going, whether they're friends or family

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members, . How do we get over that hurdle and finding what that new norm might look

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like if we don't even know where to begin?

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Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, so I guess it does rest a little bit on the

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assumption that we have a, a good sense of self and our identity.

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Um, and I would say it's probably a good thing to check in on yourself with that.

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There are a lot of websites out there that, help people kind of

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identify what their values are.

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Um, Yeah, that language again is used a lot.

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but even just, having some check ins and this is why I also help people,

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make sure that they're naming all the roles in their life and not

Nancy May: 00:20:47

losing, that sense of who they are.

Nancy May: 00:20:50

Not just having one, but having multiple, even in the

Nancy May: 00:20:52

course of caregiving to be able to say, you know, I like to knit.

Nancy May: 00:20:56

So even though mom and dad may not be doing it, I'm going to, order some

Nancy May: 00:21:00

yarn and watch a YouTube and get back into it because at the very least I can.

Nancy May: 00:21:06

Make a sweater for mom, even if it doesn't look perfect.

Nancy May: 00:21:09

Right.

Nancy May: 00:21:11

Evan Plys PhD: Exactly, and, making sure that you, don't lose sight of,

Nancy May: 00:21:15

who you are and and also recognizing.

Nancy May: 00:21:18

I think 1 of the benefits of doing that kind of regularly with yourself is

Nancy May: 00:21:23

there might be times that that's not.

Nancy May: 00:21:27

Feasible that that has to take a back burner to other responsibility,

Nancy May: 00:21:31

That's a practicality of, of when somebody else is so dependent

Nancy May: 00:21:35

upon you to live there every day.

Nancy May: 00:21:38

Evan Plys PhD: yeah, if, if I'm taking care of a parent and they're in the

Nancy May: 00:21:40

hospital, it may be that I can't, like, while they're in the hospital, I'm not

Nancy May: 00:21:46

able to, do the, the baking that I love.

Nancy May: 00:21:50

Um, but, that doesn't change that.

Nancy May: 00:21:54

That's a big part of who I am and, how I, I get joy.

Nancy May: 00:21:59

It's just that this other role is requiring a little bit more

Nancy May: 00:22:05

time and nurturing right now.

Nancy May: 00:22:07

Um, but that doesn't mean that that other role isn't important to who I am anymore.

Nancy May: 00:22:14

Well, and even we had, we had also discussed it at one point, a

Nancy May: 00:22:18

little bit about how you take, how you take the lessons that you've learned as

Nancy May: 00:22:22

a caregiver and create, I wouldn't say a new identity, but, um, A new sense of, or

Nancy May: 00:22:30

an additional sense of responsibility.

Nancy May: 00:22:31

Not that we want to pile on more responsibility.

Nancy May: 00:22:33

Sometimes we just like, at the end of it, just, I am so physically

Nancy May: 00:22:38

and emotionally exhausted that you end up being numb for a while.

Nancy May: 00:22:42

And I think that's a normal reaction for many who have been so entrenched

Nancy May: 00:22:47

in, in doing this work for, I wouldn't say it's not work, but, but having

Nancy May: 00:22:53

the responsibility for somebody else.

Nancy May: 00:22:55

And the, the only outcome ultimately in, in an older person is when they

Nancy May: 00:23:01

pass and that versus when you've got kids and the outcome is they leave

Nancy May: 00:23:07

the nest, they go to college and, and they start their own family.

Nancy May: 00:23:11

So it's a little bit more positive than at the end of someone's life.

Nancy May: 00:23:14

Although at the end of someone's life, if you make that life have more

Nancy May: 00:23:18

meaning at the, even at, I say even to the very last breath, then, uh.

Nancy May: 00:23:23

That's positive too.

Nancy May: 00:23:25

Creating a new, a new role or new responsibility or a new way to, to

Nancy May: 00:23:30

take those skills and leverage them is, is a good way to just at least

Nancy May: 00:23:35

make the transition, I would say.

Nancy May: 00:23:37

Is that correct?

Nancy May: 00:23:38

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, and, loss, grief, bereavement is.

Nancy May: 00:23:43

Really intense, and it may not be instant that you're, you're

Nancy May: 00:23:48

like, okay, now you wake up the next day and I'm starting this new

Nancy May: 00:23:53

Life is all better.

Nancy May: 00:23:54

He's gone.

Nancy May: 00:23:55

Next.

Nancy May: 00:23:57

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, exactly.

Nancy May: 00:23:57

Doesn't work that way.

Nancy May: 00:23:59

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah.

Nancy May: 00:24:00

So, um, it, it takes time.

Nancy May: 00:24:03

I think.

Nancy May: 00:24:03

Also, the reality is it takes a lot of, legal and administrative time.

Nancy May: 00:24:09

I would say death does not mark, necessarily the end of caregiving.

Nancy May: 00:24:14

the way we set, have things set up is, there's still a lot to be done.

Nancy May: 00:24:20

and so, there's actually that role kind of continues, uh, for a while.

Nancy May: 00:24:26

And continue for years.

Nancy May: 00:24:27

It was at the longest I heard of somebody 17 years.

Nancy May: 00:24:30

And, I've shared with a very close friend.

Nancy May: 00:24:33

I said, you know, every.

Nancy May: 00:24:35

As, as not just the POA for my folks, but also their, their executor, trustee, every

Nancy May: 00:24:41

piece of paper that I touched after the fact in my personal grieving process is.

Nancy May: 00:24:48

I feel like I'm going through that last day all over again.

Nancy May: 00:24:50

It's, it's touching one more thing.

Nancy May: 00:24:52

It's just a reminder that they're gone.

Nancy May: 00:24:54

And that's, for those who are listening, I want to let you know that with others

Nancy May: 00:24:59

that I've spoken to, that's pretty normal.

Nancy May: 00:25:01

And since we have a geropsychologist here, I guess maybe you can either reinforce

Nancy May: 00:25:06

or tell me I'm full of, what, on that

Nancy May: 00:25:09

Evan Plys PhD: that's normal.

Nancy May: 00:25:09

Yeah, no, that's definitely normal.

Nancy May: 00:25:12

Okay, I was like, oh my God, I thought I was like losing my mind.

Nancy May: 00:25:15

I'm not like a whack job here going on, but thank you for reinforcing.

Nancy May: 00:25:22

I have, uh, I have not lost my mind.

Nancy May: 00:25:24

That is a pretty normal sense of, of feeling

Nancy May: 00:25:28

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, absolutely.

Nancy May: 00:25:30

And, and, you know, there, there's a lot of feelings that

Nancy May: 00:25:34

come with, that reminder of loss.

Nancy May: 00:25:37

and that responsibility and other, other families, members

Nancy May: 00:25:40

who don't have that role will never experience that the way that you did.

Nancy May: 00:25:45

Evan Plys PhD: Yes, the, caregiving, in the verb tense is, is not

Nancy May: 00:25:49

contained to 1 person, or very rarely is contained to 1 person.

Nancy May: 00:25:54

Um, but everybody does have a different experience.

Nancy May: 00:25:56

and that's true of, when the care recipient is alive and that's

Nancy May: 00:26:00

true after, the care recipient passes, everyone's caregiver

Nancy May: 00:26:05

role experience is, is different.

Nancy May: 00:26:08

And, it comes with different emotions, but I think pretty universally, loss is

Nancy May: 00:26:14

hard and, really challenging and, and.

Nancy May: 00:26:18

Associated with a lot of negative emotion, I think prevailing, there's,

Nancy May: 00:26:22

it's not all negative emotions.

Nancy May: 00:26:24

There is, moments of, joy looking back on, the person or memorializing them,

Nancy May: 00:26:29

remembering them, um, hopefully being able to evaluate your, actions and role in a,

Nancy May: 00:26:37

in a favorable way, uh, relief, uh, a lot of times that, and that's a very normal.

Nancy May: 00:26:44

emotion, and a lot of it's sadness.

Nancy May: 00:26:48

So, just before we wrap up, I want to talk about maybe three things

Nancy May: 00:26:53

that you would recommend people do to, to help them through this process

Nancy May: 00:26:59

and understand that even though you have become Well, the term I use when

Nancy May: 00:27:05

I reach out to you is, codependent.

Nancy May: 00:27:07

Maybe that's not the correct clinical term.

Nancy May: 00:27:10

But you have become so dependent on identifying in that role

Nancy May: 00:27:13

and the responsibilities that they become habitual.

Nancy May: 00:27:17

What are some things that you would recommend people do?

Nancy May: 00:27:19

I mean, we talked and I said, one of the things that I did was create this podcast

Nancy May: 00:27:25

to really take all the years of learning and experience and share that with others,

Nancy May: 00:27:30

not just through my own life, but through people like yourself to bring together,

Nancy May: 00:27:35

to have that conversation and say, okay, it's, it's not necessarily a new identity.

Nancy May: 00:27:40

It's a, it's a different, different way of taking those life lessons

Nancy May: 00:27:45

and hopefully making other people's lives just a little bit better.

Nancy May: 00:27:49

And I see people write books and some do different things.

Nancy May: 00:27:53

They volunteer, but what are some practical things that you would recommend?

Nancy May: 00:27:59

somebody do to at least honor the grief and come back to

Nancy May: 00:28:05

what I would term a new normal.

Nancy May: 00:28:07

So that, that weight of the grief is not so compressing,

Nancy May: 00:28:13

Evan Plys PhD: So, I, I think 3 strategies, 1, is about

Nancy May: 00:28:17

memorializing the person.

Nancy May: 00:28:19

So, that person will continue to be in your thoughts, will continue to be in

Nancy May: 00:28:24

your world and your environment as well.

Nancy May: 00:28:27

you will get reminders.

Nancy May: 00:28:29

And so,

Nancy May: 00:28:30

like your guardian angel kind of thing,

Nancy May: 00:28:32

Evan Plys PhD: it, it could be that it could also be a picture, that

Nancy May: 00:28:35

you see, um, and, um, And so I think having some type of way that you're

Nancy May: 00:28:41

memorializing the person is kind of taking more control over that.

Nancy May: 00:28:46

and, being able to set up those thoughts and reminders and images in a way that

Nancy May: 00:28:53

kind of fits for you and is, respectful of the relationship that you had,

Nancy May: 00:28:57

so memorializing somebody else, you taking the action to do so

Nancy May: 00:29:01

actually puts the control back in your hand versus the person who needs and

Nancy May: 00:29:06

need and care because they're gone.

Nancy May: 00:29:07

Is that, is that a correct, Description

Nancy May: 00:29:10

Evan Plys PhD: I think it gives you more control over your grief

Nancy May: 00:29:13

process.

Nancy May: 00:29:14

it allows, you are constructing something for, a grieving process for,

Nancy May: 00:29:22

or and

Nancy May: 00:29:23

being controlled by the grief.

Nancy May: 00:29:25

Evan Plys PhD: exactly.

Nancy May: 00:29:25

So it gives you a little bit more power in that relationship.

Nancy May: 00:29:29

I would also say, abandon any timeline expectations you have

Nancy May: 00:29:34

around the grieving process.

Nancy May: 00:29:35

Like, okay, it's been 6 months.

Nancy May: 00:29:37

I should be feeling this way, or I shouldn't be feeling

Nancy May: 00:29:40

this way, or it's been a year.

Nancy May: 00:29:42

So that

Nancy May: 00:29:44

weeks, I should be going on.

Nancy May: 00:29:46

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, exactly.

Nancy May: 00:29:46

The corporate world, like, okay, you've got your 10 days

Nancy May: 00:29:49

of grief, now get back to work.

Nancy May: 00:29:51

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, exactly.

Nancy May: 00:29:52

It's not like, uh, taking leave.

Nancy May: 00:29:54

Well, I mean, it shouldn't be like, taking leave where, you get

Nancy May: 00:29:58

an X amount of, time for grief.

Nancy May: 00:30:01

everyone's journey is different.

Nancy May: 00:30:03

And so there's no timeline when you have a timeline and you start to,

Nancy May: 00:30:08

evaluate your, your grief and your emotional response, then you're going

Nancy May: 00:30:12

to start to judge yourself and it's just going to make everything worse.

Nancy May: 00:30:15

So I would say there's no timeline.

Nancy May: 00:30:17

And don't let other people tell you that there's a timeline.

Nancy May: 00:30:20

I've heard that too.

Nancy May: 00:30:20

It's like, it's time to get back out.

Nancy May: 00:30:23

If you don't do that, others are going to drop you as friends.

Nancy May: 00:30:26

Well, if they're going to do that, Then, screw it.

Nancy May: 00:30:29

They are not your friends.

Nancy May: 00:30:30

It's time to move on, is my attitude.

Nancy May: 00:30:33

They weren't your friend to begin with, if they've given you a timeline.

Nancy May: 00:30:36

Just, Next.

Nancy May: 00:30:38

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah.

Nancy May: 00:30:38

It sounds like not a very supportive friend.

Nancy May: 00:30:41

Yeah, I'm a little harsher, so.

Nancy May: 00:30:45

Um, and then the other thing I would say is, kind of like what we were

Nancy May: 00:30:49

talking about around, reminding yourself of your values, and adjusting

Nancy May: 00:30:54

your behaviors to make sure that, you are, enacting those values.

Nancy May: 00:30:58

So.

Nancy May: 00:30:59

the example that you raised of, doing this podcast, I'm, I'm assuming that, if

Nancy May: 00:31:04

you were to do a values, exercise that, generativity or, that might be something

Nancy May: 00:31:11

that you really value, and so, uh, you found a behavior to enact that value.

Nancy May: 00:31:19

I think when people do consider, this new normal, and, thinking about what

Nancy May: 00:31:24

does life look like now, making sure that you're keeping those values in mind, and

Nancy May: 00:31:31

I think the reason why, and what makes it challenging, because it might seem

Nancy May: 00:31:35

kind of intuitive and natural, really intense sadness is Makes us want to avoid.

Nancy May: 00:31:43

Makes us want to avoid what?

Nancy May: 00:31:46

Evan Plys PhD: Do whatever we're doing.

Nancy May: 00:31:48

Yeah, I mean, it, and it makes sense from a body perspective.

Nancy May: 00:31:52

I don't want to, I don't want to do something that I know is going

Nancy May: 00:31:55

to make me feel really, really bad.

Nancy May: 00:31:58

So, if I took a walk after dinner every night for 50 years with my

Nancy May: 00:32:04

spouse, and then they passed away, and I cannot bring myself to go

Nancy May: 00:32:11

on a walk because it's too sad.

Nancy May: 00:32:13

It, the grief makes you avoid that behavior.

Nancy May: 00:32:17

Knowing that what I got from that walk, is maybe companionship, I value health,

Nancy May: 00:32:25

knowing those things allows you to replace that behavior or rethink that behavior.

Nancy May: 00:32:32

So, you will want to avoid things, sometimes.

Nancy May: 00:32:37

again,

Nancy May: 00:32:37

because they hurt.

Nancy May: 00:32:38

They're painful, right?

Nancy May: 00:32:39

You want to avoid pain, whether it's physical or emotional,

Nancy May: 00:32:42

Evan Plys PhD: people rarely sign themselves up to, receive

Nancy May: 00:32:45

really painful, situations.

Nancy May: 00:32:47

So, yeah, we naturally avoid it.

Nancy May: 00:32:49

But making sure that, you know, the detriment of that is we could avoid

Nancy May: 00:32:55

behaviors that, give us meaning and purpose and then it creates this cycle

Nancy May: 00:33:00

of, now I'm not doing the things that give me meaning, I'm feeling even worse now.

Nancy May: 00:33:06

I'm just like stewing in those negative emotions and then we can downward spiral.

Nancy May: 00:33:10

So, very early on.

Nancy May: 00:33:13

not even forget making behavior changes, forget, finding that new normal, just

Nancy May: 00:33:20

being aware of what are the things that give you meaning and purpose and

Nancy May: 00:33:27

that you value and that you want to make sure make it into that new normal.

Nancy May: 00:33:32

Just knowing that is very powerful.

Nancy May: 00:33:36

Because, eventually you will, find new behaviors that kind of fuel that.

Nancy May: 00:33:43

And so making sure that you're, scratching all those itches, doing things in line

Nancy May: 00:33:48

with your values and and you feel like yourself is going to be really important.

Nancy May: 00:33:53

This has been a really fascinating discussion.

Nancy May: 00:33:56

And, I'd like to just add one, one point if, if I may, and you can correct me if

Nancy May: 00:34:01

I'm wrong, but we're talking about values and the values that we have And I guess

Nancy May: 00:34:07

reawakening or reidentifying what they are within ourselves after a loss, of a

Nancy May: 00:34:13

role or a person, whatever that might be.

Nancy May: 00:34:16

And understanding and sort of reidentifying what's Meaningful to you

Nancy May: 00:34:24

is one thing, but I also think that it's important to let others around you

Nancy May: 00:34:29

know what those are so they don't try and impose their values or their sense

Nancy May: 00:34:36

of what you should be doing on you.

Nancy May: 00:34:38

And sometimes that takes a little bit of firmness to say, no,

Nancy May: 00:34:42

that's not what I want to do.

Nancy May: 00:34:43

That's not what I stand for.

Nancy May: 00:34:46

is that correct?

Nancy May: 00:34:47

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, I think it's great to share that with with other people.

Nancy May: 00:34:50

And I think it gives other people, kind of a framework

Nancy May: 00:34:53

also it helps them support you.

Nancy May: 00:34:56

so.

Nancy May: 00:34:57

the more concrete you can be with yourself, and identifying those

Nancy May: 00:35:00

values, the, the more, easier it will be to share that with other people.

Nancy May: 00:35:05

thank you, Evan.

Nancy May: 00:35:06

This has been, truly, I think a very important conversation that

Nancy May: 00:35:10

we all need to have With Ourselves.

Nancy May: 00:35:13

And with other family members and our friends, not just at the end when it

Nancy May: 00:35:20

hurts, it hurts a lot, but throughout the whole process of caregiving so that

Nancy May: 00:35:26

when that day comes, it's, I don't want to say it's easier, because there's

Nancy May: 00:35:31

nothing that can truly prepare you for the loss of somebody that you love.

Nancy May: 00:35:36

And, what I've learned is that each loss is different as much as somebody will

Nancy May: 00:35:42

say, ah, you know, it's kind of the same.

Nancy May: 00:35:45

No, I think that's, I think that's butkus.

Nancy May: 00:35:48

It's not true.

Nancy May: 00:35:50

because everybody's way that we exit this earth is slightly different too.

Nancy May: 00:35:54

Even if, The movies say otherwise, or somebody else tells you, but are there

Nancy May: 00:35:59

any sort of last parting words that you would want to share with my audience??

Nancy May: 00:36:04

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, to end on a, beautifully morbid note,

Nancy May: 00:36:09

please, dig that hole, no pun intended.

Nancy May: 00:36:13

Evan Plys PhD: if we think of, You had drawn the analogy of parenting and caring

Nancy May: 00:36:19

for, uh, an elder, I think that death, end of life, loss is very intimate.

Nancy May: 00:36:28

And yes, it's scary.

Nancy May: 00:36:29

Yes, it's sad.

Nancy May: 00:36:31

And it's extremely intimate, and that's, I think a valuable framework

Nancy May: 00:36:36

in, everyone anticipates grief, it, it becomes, you think about it.

Nancy May: 00:36:43

It's not, it's not something that, like, oh, I never expected this to happen.

Nancy May: 00:36:49

if you're caregiving for someone, you've had those thoughts.

Nancy May: 00:36:52

And, I think that, appreciating the intimacy of it, will help kind of

Nancy May: 00:37:00

frame your experience around that.

Nancy May: 00:37:04

And so I think rather than viewing it as the, worst possible emotional

Nancy May: 00:37:11

experience, it may be the worst possible outcome, or the, the most challenging

Nancy May: 00:37:17

emotionally outcome, but also appreciating that it is, Truly the apex of intimacy

Nancy May: 00:37:24

on, on the caregiving journey.

Nancy May: 00:37:27

Even if you're not there for that final breath of that final

Nancy May: 00:37:31

moment, there are so many little things that happen to lead up to that.

Nancy May: 00:37:39

I'd say, you know, please, if, if you have missed being with somebody that you

Nancy May: 00:37:44

love, that has, has passed just before you could enter the door of the or their

Nancy May: 00:37:48

room, whatever that might be, understand that you have played such a pivotal

Nancy May: 00:37:54

role in their lives and they in yours.

Nancy May: 00:37:57

And I hope that you, you understand that that's something to be cherished.

Nancy May: 00:38:03

Evan Plys PhD: Absolutely.

Nancy May: 00:38:04

and thank you for, for clarifying that.

Nancy May: 00:38:06

It doesn't have to be that you're there at that moment.

Nancy May: 00:38:09

your physical presence is in, I would say, as important as your, general

Nancy May: 00:38:17

presence in the person's life.

Nancy May: 00:38:19

Thank you, Evan.

Nancy May: 00:38:20

This has been a very, very special and I, I hate to use the word caring

Nancy May: 00:38:25

with it because I don't have the word around it to really give it a proper

Nancy May: 00:38:31

due diligence or the proper meaning.

Nancy May: 00:38:32

But I think it's, it's a very personal discussion that we all

Nancy May: 00:38:37

need to have with ourselves.

Nancy May: 00:38:38

And I really, really appreciate and thank you for being here today as my guest.

Nancy May: 00:38:44

And all the work that you do.

Nancy May: 00:38:45

And for those who are listening, I will have a link to Evan's webpage

Nancy May: 00:38:51

so you can reach him and get more information on the work that he does.

Nancy May: 00:38:55

If you need some help, you can reach out to some of the work that's being

Nancy May: 00:38:58

done through Harvard and through Mass General Hospital up in Boston.

Nancy May: 00:39:03

And on that note, if you'd like to share a comment or a story that You

Nancy May: 00:39:10

think is important to us, to me and to others who are listening or just to

Nancy May: 00:39:15

yourselves, go to EldercareSuccess.Live there's a little blue tab on the right

Nancy May: 00:39:20

hand side of that page that you can click on, and there you can press it.

Nancy May: 00:39:26

A screen will pop up and you can leave me a voicemail message or just send

Nancy May: 00:39:29

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Nancy May: 00:39:33

recommendations for other speakers and guests who can be of help to yourself

Nancy May: 00:39:37

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Nancy May: 00:39:40

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Nancy May: 00:39:42

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Nancy May: 00:39:46

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Nancy May: 00:39:49

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Nancy May: 00:39:53

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Nancy May: 00:39:56

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Nancy May: 00:39:59

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Nancy May: 00:40:03

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Nancy May: 00:40:05

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Nancy May: 00:40:09

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Nancy May: 00:40:13

We'll see you on another episode, or we'll hear you on another

Nancy May: 00:40:16

episode of Eldercare Success.

Nancy May: 00:40:18

Take care, be well, and keep caring.

Nancy May: 00:40:20

Bye bye.